Hi karl,
First, I believe I got flat out, plain, incredibly lucky. We have been getting similar temps here. I now believe it is *much* hotter than they like, but I could not find much species info that was any real clue until just 2 days ago, scroll down to item # 158, this link: http://www.inbar.int/species.htm ... I planted mine both inside and outside. I separated the most promising ones from those that did not look so good, but still looked like they had potential. I was able to get about the same germination from both groups, but most germinated seeds from each have subsequently died off. I do not know what killed the others, but I have been using products called RootGuard and Gnatrol to fend off fungus and fungus gnats. I am down to two from the outside lot (which I moved inside to my computer room shortly after they germinated - daytime temps in the mid 90's in here, too! No AC ...) and one from the 'inside' lot. I mist them frequently. The 'insider' doing well so far, about 7/8" tall, slow, s-l-o-w growth, but looks good. The two form the outside lot are very tiny, about 1/4" and 1/8" tall. Since summers are hot here, if any of these Q.t.'s survive, they should do very well indeed. I really do not have a cooler location to keep them, so I am babying these little ones as best I can. I fear, from what I have observed, the viability of Q.t. seems rather fragile ... I am very sorry if this does not help.
Heidi

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Karl - have you removed (carefully!) any of the Q. tumidissinoda seeds to *verify* nothing is happening? I am sorry I did not mention, but the group that I had outside was not 'doing anything' - or so it seemed. So I checked. The day I posted that I had 5 more germinate, (the 13th) I actually picked through and removed those that were germinating - it was *11 days* after I initially planted them outside, and that day I found the 5 germinating is also when I brought them inside - it is 3 of those 5 that did not make it. If you have not done so, you may consider 'exhuming' and inspecting for signs of life.

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cngodless
Excellent job, not losing any! You are indeed fortunate. I hate losing any. I move most of my plants outside as soon as possible. I do not like it, but I know I will have losses. <grumble> some multi-legged munchers even manage to sneak in damage before I can get them outside. I use what bio-controls I can, against the fungus gnats and the damping off fungi, diatomaceous earth and B.t. as needed for the myriad plant munching critters ... hand picking and squashing those I catch. The assassin bugs, wasps and lizards help out and get their share ... <grin> a neighbor described our neighborhood as 'Wild Kingdom' ... the squirrels outside are a problem too, digging midst the potted plants for nuts that are not there, the insane little nibble heads. I am torn between wanting to off the little grubbers and not really wanting to kill them, either.

Unless you have 'full spectrum' grow lights, (I do not) as a general rule plants tend to be happiest with natural sunlight, direct or indirect as the species seem to require. As far as taking winter goes, if you can situate the 'boo near a sheltered southern facing wall, or where a similar 'thermal mass' is located, the micro-climate it experiences will be milder than out in the full open, especially if protected from typical prevailing winter winds for your area. Again, with the genetic variation inherent in seed grown vs clone plants, some are bound to be more tolerant to your local conditions. As far as the clone cultivars of 'boo available from growers, yes, some are a result of vegetative sports (spontaneous mutations) ... others are chance seedlings that had exceptional qualities that someone, somewhere, recognized. Quite a few 'new' plant varieties start with 'hobby gardeners' as opposed to the 'big guys' in the plant business. With care and luck, you may well have some seedlings (of *both* your Phyllostachys heteroclada & heterocycla!) that are much, much more cold tolerant than the parent stock was. The pity is not knowing any exact info on what conditions the seed parents grew under, it could be useful. You may also find some of the info on the INBAR link I posted for karl to be of use. Just don't let limits *be* a limit to at least giving it your best shot. Using Q. tumidissinoda as an example, I may not have attempted it if I knew what I'd be dealing with, maybe it's too hot here ... but in spite of losses (yes, even if I lose them all) I am glad I tried - but I'll be happiest if my extraordinary luck holds, since a few of them at least do not seem to mind the heat.
Heidi

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Hi Heidi,
Thank you so much for the information you sent me!! I went ahead and moved them inside to the air conditioning after reading the inbar article about how they grow in a cool mountain enviroment. I "exhumed" a few and I think I see some life. I wonder if you live near me I'm in Navarre fl.
Thanks again
karl

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karl

Karl,
You are most welcome! I do truly hope the info is going to help you with your Q.t.'s (a.k.a. Qiong Zhu). With my outside batch, I would not have known any more were alive had I not 'exhumed' them and likely would have lost them under the covered back porch where they were - it's been consistently hitting over 100º out there lately, sort of like a car in the sun. Almost wish I found the info on the INBAR site sooner, but it might have scared me into giving up! As it is, my 'plant luck' is still dancing, and my Q.t.'s are hanging in there. <Grin> I am not 'near' as the crow flies. I too had wondered of your location, when you said 95º in the shade! I'm near Charleston, SC, USDA sub zone 8b ... actually very similar to some of Fl. By all means, post or PM your progress ... and all of the best of luck with your Qiong Zhu!
Heidi
Edited by NutzaboutPlants on Jun 24, 2006 at 11:38 AM

For anyone waiting for all their 'boo to germinate, be patient. While most of my first planting were up within a few days - see 8 June entry, the last Moso seedling is up, (for 17 germ. out of an origional 18 seed batch) as of two days ago, 34 days from planting, 36 days if soak time I used is taken into account. Day 3 from emergance, 1" tall. Lost some seedlings to various predators (insects, microbes). No further losses to the Hetroclada seedlings, they seem a bit tougher than the Moso. All 5 of the D. membranaceus seedlings are still 'with me', 4 are strong and vigorous, one a bit less so - the first one that came up is larger than my first Moso seedling that germinated - with a difference in 'age' of aprox. 2 weeks.

As far as germination goes, exception to the above. All but one of my Qiong Zhu has perished. The one remaining, and still s-l-o-w-l-y growing, was also the first to germinate - my hopes are no longer too high for this one, but I'll not give up unless it does. I am no expert, but it would appear that Qiong Zhu seeds could be classified as "recalcitrant seeds" as in metabolically active when fresh - non-dormant and probably not tolerant of being dried. After the flush of germination I had with the seed I had outside (see 23 June posts) all remaining seeds (all had been planted) in the batch of Q.t. were shriveled/moldy at the time I recovered those that had germinated. A discouraging experiance, but worth while for the learning.
Edited by NutzaboutPlants on Jul 5, 2006 at 12:18 PM

If anyone is interested, the Hetroclada and Moso 'boo seedlings are still doing fine, D. membranaceus, (which I nicknamed BurmaBoo) still growing the fastest of 5 bamboo species I have tried from seed.

Regretably, but not a big surprize, my last Qiong Zhu seedling dwindled in vigor and has died - I hope someone out there has had better results. From research into similar types of seed, dry loose sand or powdered charcoal has apparently been used as one means to pack such "live" seed for short term storage and transport, while maintaining high viability and reducing the attack of fungus. I am not cirtain if it would be the case for Qiong Zhu, but I suspect so. I also suspect this would only be of benifit if such seed were so packaged at the point of harvest, so the the seed is in optimum condition when it reaches various distribution sites. It may not have improved my odds or the outcome any in this instance, but who knows?

Anybody have any thoughts, input, jump on in ...
Edited by NutzaboutPlants on Jul 13, 2006 at 06:43 PM

aloha heidi. i'm a brand new convert to bamboo. like 36 hours ago or so. just bought some seeds on ebay. i'm wondering if you could sum up your method(s) in a sentence or two? length of soak, medium, depth of seed, lighting, moisture, temperature, etc. hope that isn't asking too much. i've been reading a bunch of stuff and it does seem that there is quite a bit of variety in people's techniques. i suppose it might depend on the particular seed variety and vitality too. lots of variables. i had bought a couple of two gallon bamboo starts about 6 months ago at a farmers' market here in hawaii (rainy side of the big island), and they just sat and sat and sat after i had transplanted them and didn't do anything (being dug up about 6 times by feral pigs didn't help!). i was wanting enough lumber to build a small structure in a couple of years! nothing like the rude awakening of reality! i'm not known as a patient person. anyhow, about a month ago they started sending out some 1/4 inch culms that were angular at each node... then about two weeks ago a culm appeared that was about 1 inch plus in diameter... and now it is almost 7 feet high! woohoo! this weekend i will likely see the person i bought it from and try to find out what variety it is... all i know at this point is that it is clumping. so i went crazy and bought about 8 varieties of seeds (several "black" which i really like the look of...). wondering if you have any experience with buying seeds from internet/european sources and the effects of mailing, etc. thanks for any input and best wishes with your seedlings!

aloha and mahalo,
george
Edited by george_in_hawaii on Jul 19, 2006 at 02:35 AM

Aloha George ... <grin> in a sentence or two? Ooo, that's dooozy <snort, giggle, stomps feet gleefully> ah, no, not exactly. But I will do my best ...
I start by soaking the seeds (try to change the soak water every few hours - a fine mesh tea strainer helps) for 24 to no more than 48 hrs - this speeds up germination. I use coir (ground coconut husk fiber) for media, depth 4x the thickness of the seed, florescent light or bright indirect sun, keep damp, try for 'sponge damp' (but Not drippy wet, or saturated to 'run off' .. too damp can cause rot in good seed, dead seed will rot no matter what you do) keep warm, around 85°F and watch out for fungus gnats, their maggots eat the roots and kill plants, there are products to control them. <gasp>
That's the 'nutshell' version. Germination is only half of success, as fungus gnat maggots are only one of many opportunists waiting and willing to do lunch on very young bamboo ... if you have read my other posts, you know I have had losses. To twist a German saying, 'That which did not kill us means we were stronger' ... so I try to take comfort in believing the survivors are stronger and better able to thrive, but excess 'kindness' can kill as fast as neglect. Experience will help strike a balance, but you will have a disadvantage with limited seed of unknown viability.
<grin> Not known as patient? Bamboo can teach it to you ... to quote from another site, a saying about newly planted bamboo:
"The first year it sleeps
The second year it creeps
The third year it leaps"
The only bamboo seeds I have bought have been from seedman.com (back in 2002, Dendrocalamus strictus, no longer available there) and here at the Banana Tree. Though tempted, (got the 'boo bug real bad too!) I have not made any purchase of bamboo seed from eBay-ers, as I worry the seed may not fair too well in transit. It could well be quite viable, but at least one of those sellers had stated that transit time out of the EU can be weeks! Extreme heat and rough handling can be the death of seeds. There is also the risk of customs snagging them. It's a gamble. But as you have already taken the 'plunge' in making purchases, I do wish you the utmost of good luck. Since I do not know how appropriate posting links to other forum sites may be, I am sending you a Private Message - you will need to be logged on to check it, please let me know what you think.

Heidi
Edited by NutzaboutPlants on Jul 19, 2006 at 11:25 AM

Here is my experience with the hetroclada

http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5178#post5178

And here is my experience with the moso

http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1953

thank you both nutzaboutplants and cngodles for your replies. helpful stuff. i do have one question for heidi and one for cngodles. heidi... you say to keep the seeds around 85 degrees. how do you do that? i've read people use plastic bags with an ordinary light bulb... any specifics appreciated. (okay, one more for heidi ... you go directly from the 24 hour soak to the fiber?). cngodles... the one academic paper i read (by the indian fellow) concluded that sand was the least effective medium for germination (only compared to two paper methods), yet i see you are using it as opposed to the "on top of the paper" method. i'm just wondering what your experience is that led you to use the sand method? i'm just hoping to avoid unnecessary problems with the small number of seeds i've ordered. thanks again to you both!
aloha,
george
Edited by george_in_hawaii on Jul 21, 2006 at 01:48 PM

George, my house is warm, so I have plenty of places to start seeds requiring warmth, and I have thermometers. If you do not have a thermometer, around 80-85 degrees is going to feel warmish, not hot. An ordinary incandescent light bulb (not too close!) will provide both warmth and needed light, plastic bags will control moisture, regardless of media used. Yes, I go directly from the soak to the coir fiber.
Controlled germination by researchers is done in what amounts to an incubator - controlled temp, light, moisture. The ideal is to try to simulate as closely as possible what the seed 'wants' for germination. Not to slight other's sugested methods, those on this site included, there is no wrong method if it they each approximate the needed conditions to achieve germination. It boils down, I think, to people use what they have at hand, (I do!) trying different methods if there is such a luxury (plenty of seeds) and stick with what works out best for them.
Not as big a help as you may be looking for, I fear ...

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..."But we all have our illusions, far be it for me to take away yours"... - Mok, Rock&Rule
Edited by NutzaboutPlants on Jul 22, 2006 at 09:57 AM

The sand was suggested by this company for the Moso seeds. So I used it and it worked.

The germination rate was not as high as the Hetroclada, but I haven't yet tried moso is soil.